A looming war against Iran?
February 4, 2007
Again the American Administration headed by the nefarious Bush and Cheney are insistently trying to convince the world that Iran is a danger, to which end they are concocting a strange cauldron of lies and false facts, at the time that they say their intention is not invading Iran.
It is clear that the attitude of China and Russia in the United Nations and in their trade relationships with Iran, has been substantial to make Bush say that they are not invading – despite the endless tirades Israeli politicians care to launch against the Iranian regime.
In my opinion the strategy here is simply egg Iran to act by provoking it with continuous assaults on Iranian interests in Iraq, by taking Iranians as hosts for the mere fact that they are Iranians and, consequently, according to Bush/Cheney’s mentality suspects of terrorism.
So far what I have seen is real terrorism is the Israel and US’s behaviour, something that can be clearly named State Terrorism. The invasion of Lebanon by Israel, the intervention of the Israeli military advisers in the Kurdish North of Iraq, the threats Israel is uttering against the Ayatollahs’ country are to my view nothing but provocation.
The American public opinion is growing against the bellicose attitudes of their President, but their President, assuming his usual dictatorial “poise”, openly defies his “subjects” and strides forward to his pre-conceived target : dominance of Iran by any means, be them direct attack or inner subversion of the country so as to change its regime. Bush appears more and more like the classical school yard bully.
In the meantime, the European Union lying on its laurels. Or toadying to the US.
I know what I am saying is not new, but I had to say it nevertheless.
A way to let out steam.
Political, Human, Environmental Respect 
All righty then.
Nothing new, true.
It’s all the rage these days.
Completely ill informed people attacking the President of the United States with angry vitriol, and feeling better about themselves for doing this.
Some are miserable toads and hate everthing..
Some are clueless, but feel better sniping at authority.
Some would hate America no matter what the country did or who the president was.
I see English isn’t your first language.
So, preaching hate and whining about America is nothing you have a stake in. And if your an American, work on your English and quit parroting rhetoric you don’t understand.
It makes you look like a stooge.
You have an opinion that I respect. But that opinion is not the same held by a large percentage of Americans who in polls have clearly shown what theirs is.
I think you will be left alone at the pace changes take place in the States.
And I do not hate America or the Americans. In fact I can proudly say I have many good friends among them.
And as happens with people like you, you are also wrong in your assertion: I and billions of people like me have very much at stake, one must be blind not to realise that fact.
icanplainly see
Can you really? Attacking people as being ill-informed just because you don’t happen to agree with their views is not seeing things plainly in my book.
Do you ever question your nations leaders? Or do you blindly accept everything they do out of loyal patriotism? If so, that’s not healthy.
It may well be “all the rage” to criticise Bush and his administration but let’s face it, he’s giving us a heck of a lot of reasons to.
I agree with your post Jose. And it’s so frustrating (and cheap) when people play the “anti” card at any criticisms of their government – antisemitic, anti-American…
It just doesn’t get us anywhere.
George bush worries me immensely.
Thank you, Earthpal. Unfortunately George W. Bush worries billions immensely. A President who, else, was not clearly elected by the American people.
Excellent article, Jose.
Yes, it has been said before but must be repeated as often as possible.
And you said it just right.
‘Idon’tknowpissall’ made me laugh, though.
Giving a lecture on language while saying, ‘And if your an American,….’.
Excellento.
Rather than parroting neocon tripe, try staying at home and working on your Genitive case.
Looking forward to the next time when you “let out steam”, Jose.
Your words have a ring of truth – and must be said – whether “letting out steam”, or “letting off steam”…
Thank you, Merkin. Finding faults as you well say is one of the alternative these neo-cons have, something to belittle people, not realising they are by that mere fact, mean themselves. Or rather uneducated.
LOL, Richard. I must pick it up yet again. Exhausted I am. But the Bush and Cheney pair are an unexhaustible source of steam.
Jose,
You know you’re on to something when the right wingnuts send in their storm-troopers.
I love the way Americans write President of the United States as if the role is something so-much more than just a political office. Bush is just a politician, and utterly rubbish one at that.
As you wish boys.
Trust me, no matter who the President is, without America, and that seems to be the gist of all this, the world will not be a place you’d want to bring up your children in.
I understand the small attacking the powerful. I would bet no matter who’s in charge, America will be the bad guy in every situation because America is the wealthiest, most powerful and freest nation in the history of mankind.
It’s only human nature to be jealous, envious and enjoy aiding in seeing the hotshot made average again.
Remember my words, criticize all you want, snipe, whine and smear Americas leaders. One day your arrogance will reap a benefit you won’t be pleased with.
Look in the mirror, icanplainlysee, and repeat your last 13 words…
“As you wish boys.”
…and girls, thank you.
Well said Richard.
It is clear to me,”Icanplainlysee” that you can only see what you are given to read, quite ignoring the reality. If you analyse in detail the figures given by international organisations, you may have a shock when you see what is the actual position of the USA in the world economic field.
And how the Dollar is losing strength everywhere.
Remember that countries are what their industry and their trade are worth, large corporations who were established in the US are now displacing somewhere else where taxes and cost of labour are more interesting to them. What you thought to be big “American” corporations have proved they have no nationality, and they can now be called “Indian” or “Chinese” corporations.
And no, no American dream. The American dream is just that: a dream. I wouldn’t live in the US as it is now. Liberties have been attacked by laws that, according to US reliable media, are clearly contrary to your constitution. It is not me or those who you call “jealous, envious” who say so, it is the media that are not controlled by your government or by those who control your government.
I repeat: hating America has become a global sport, not only by “peace” types and left wingers worldwide, but anarchists and anti-capitalists, anti-globalisation hand wringers and good old, hate-filled unhappy people who find fault in everthing they get around.
Rather than deceive yourselves with a sense of self righteous moral superiority, you should imagine a world without a nation willing to sacrifice it’s men and women to fight tyranny.
Youth and rebellion go hand in hand. Don’t shoot yourself in the foot while acting out the normal course of life.
And, there’s an airport near you if you think there’s any other place on earth that’s better.
If you don’t live in America, you just don’t get it.
Ungratefulness is a seriously ugly trait in a person. You would be speaking Japanese or German if it wasn’t for America.
History didn’t start when you were born.
Most people who use their brain to think clearly, and their heart to feel compassion, do NOT hate America – or Americans – they hate its tyrannical government which actively engages in state (and retail) terrorism across the globe.
As I see it, icanplainlysee, YOU just don’t get it.
With that said, please keep talking with us. Dialogue like this will be a critical pre-condition for humanity’s survival. If we stop talking, the bombs will start…
As Churchill said : “JAW JAW, NOT, WAR WAR”
I can only recommend you to read News by authorised international agencies at
http://news.yahoo.com/
but most sure your attitude does not speak for a person with an open mind, and you will refuse reading what you don’t like.
I can give you other American newspapers, but of course they are not within your line of thought.
And I can assure you none of those who have sent posts here hate America, If you read the posts you will see that it is only your administration, any administration, controlled by Washington DC lobbies that are criticised here.
By the way I see Democrats have approved a new law, shy law if you permit me, to try to avoid the presence of immoral bribery in the House.
Perhaps you have an explanation for this, too.
And perhaps you have figures of how many Americans have been sacrificed in Iraq following your Administration’s illegal war there.
And perhaps you also have figures of how many Iraqis have died BECAUSE of that absurd war, which everybody, except perhaps you and others like you, know is fought simply to control Iraq’s oil. And how many died BECAUSE of the embargo imposed at the behest of the US by the UN when Saddam was still dictator.
And perhaps you also have figures of the corruption in the so-called re-construction of Iraq by American companies, in one of which your incumbent Vice-President had interests.
And perhaps you also know how much that absurd war for oil is costing the American tax-payer.
And I would recommend you to be on the alert to see which oil companies will benefit eventually from that war.
But, no, it is clear – as Richard says – that you just don’t get it.
Oh.
Blood for oil.
Halliburton.
Walmart is evil.
I hadn’t heard that before.
Thanks for the update.
If you haven’t heard that before is because you don’t even hear your fellow Americans, icanplainlysee.
Yes you’ve “heard that before” I’m sure, icanplainlysee, but you don’t accept it – do you ?
If Iraq had bananas as a natural resource – instead of oil – do you really think the Bush cabal would be interested in invading and occupying that sovereign country ‘in the name of democracy’ ?
Of course not. Even a fool can see that – and I don’t think you are a fool, icanplainlysee.
Not entirely a fool, but definitely a redneck bigot who can’t plainly see that the sympathy and affection for the USA expressed worldwide immediately post-9/11 has been squandered and soured by the asinine blunderings of the worst administration in US history. No – we are not anti-American: merely counting the days until decent Americans regain their senses, kick the Bushies out, and revert to a sane foreign policy.
Two quotes from an excellent daily US-based news bulletin:
“The enemy aggressor is always pursuing a course of larceny, murder, rapine and barbarism. We are always moving forward with high mission, a destiny imposed by the Deity to regenerate our victims while incidentally capturing their markets, to civilise savage and senile and paranoid peoples while blundering accidentally into their oil wells.”: John Flynn, 1944
=
We’re not a democracy. It’s a terrible misunderstanding and a slander to the idea of democracy to call us that. In reality, we’re a plutocracy: a government by the wealthy.” : Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General
http://tinyurl.com/dy6yy
No, we’re not anti-American – just anti-American foreign policy. We, like millions throughout Europe, think the Bush/Blair “War on Terror” is a monumental strategic and tactical blunder. It has squandered much of the worldwide sympathy felt for the USA immediately after 9/11. If that had been treated as a criminal act – which it was – and Bush had carried out his boastful threat to hunt down bin Laden and his gang and put them on trial, all decent people would have applauded. Instead, we have chaos in the Middle East, many thousands of civilian deaths, and the prospect of more of the same if Iran is attacked. Can you really wonder that we think America is at least temporarily mad?
Two quotes from a daily US-based newsletter:
“The enemy aggressor is always pursuing a course of larceny, murder, rapine and barbarism. We are always moving forward with high mission, a destiny imposed by the Deity to regenerate our victims while incidentally capturing their markets, to civilise savage and senile and paranoid peoples while blundering accidentally into their oil wells.”: John Flynn, 1944
=
We’re not a democracy. It’s a terrible misunderstanding and a slander to the idea of democracy to call us that. In reality, we’re a plutocracy: a government by the wealthy.” : Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General
http://tinyurl.com/dy6yy
Anticant has quite a point when he says: “If that had been treated as a criminal act – which it was – and Bush had carried out his boastful threat to hunt down bin Laden and his gang and put them on trial, all decent people would have applauded.”
That is where the whole problem lies. But instead of hunting down Bin Laden Bush undertook together with Blair and other allies the invasion of Iraq under the pretext that Saddam protected Bin Laden, which was proved to be a rotund lie. Oil is what that war is for.
Nobody speaks today of the close links the Bush family had with the Bin Laden family prior to the 9/11 and still have. The Bin Laden family is Saudi-Arabian, and Saudi-Arabia is the staunchest US ally in the ME, if you press me stauncher than Israel.
icanplainlysee
I resent the insult ‘Anti-American.’ That is bollocks. I am anti-Bush. Ok? Spot the difference?
Bush is useless, utterly incompetent. If you don’t believe America has problems, then that’s your error. The sooner you replace this bafoon, with a Dem or Republican, the better you’ll be.
Try this.
http://tygerland.net/?p=30
Just a little aside regarding “I can plainly see” :
Just because we don’t see something, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
For example, just because we don’t ‘see’ a thought, doesn’t mean the thought isn’t there – cos it most certainly is…what are your thoughts as you read this…are those thoughts ‘real’. In one sense they are not real. In another sense they are very much are real.
Clearly, icanplainlysee (& others) can see what he sees – but that does not mean that that is all there is to see…
Food for thought…Thought for food.
All of us only see what we see – or want to see. But that doesn’t mean that solipsism is true. So much depends on which metaphors we choose to conceptualise our thoughts and base our actions upon. False metaphors can have disastrous consequences – e.g. “War on Terror”. See Lakoff and Johnson’s brilliant exposition of the metaphorical nature of thinking in “Metaphors We Live By”.
Icanplainlysee “sees” what he wants to see – others “see” things differently :
http://terrorizethis.org/2007/02/06/failed-states-the-us-and-israel/
It gets worse and worse…
http://mathaba.net/rss/?x=550244
Interesting these comments from a former warmongerer, Richard.
Well, now I get it.
Your invested in the idea that the US is planning a world wide Imperial push to dominate the planet economically and subvert native food, dress and culture and entertainment with Sinatra, rap, cokes and McDonalds, not to mention Walmart.
Hasn’t that been going for 50 or 60 years?
Zbig is not out on a limb predicting war with Iran. No joke.
The world is devolving with re-primitivism brought on by 7th century thinkers. Duh.
As a group, you enjoy taking pot shots at the powerful because your impotent in the realm of change.
Whining, conspiracy theories and slandering others gives your petty lives meaning.
Your source for these amazing discoveries are just some other radicals opinion, but you worship at the altar of accusation and sensationalism, not fact or prudence, and certainly not evidence.
You folks are a dime a dozen.
And, you living proof that your never too young to lack originality.
You might consider dating or a theme park. Try and enjoy yourselves.
Talk amongst yourselves. I’m through.
That’s a pretty weak response!
You’ve given us Disneyland and Bush’s Walter Mittyland. Why do we need another theme park?
“You worship at the altar of accusation and sensationalism, not fact or prudence, and certainly not evidence.” What planet are you living on, plain seer? In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
I regret, icanplainlysee, that you have decided to go. I was getting confident we could some time persuade you to see matters under a different angle, unfortunately that has not been our luck.
That you repeat your visits here may be a signal you want to be persuaded, that you are not thoroughly certain that the opinions you give us are really the facts of the American reality.
Perhaps some time in the future, when you are disappointed, when you have been let down by your administrations, you will ponder over the time you wasted defending them.
Have a look at icps’s own site. He’s capable of writing some pretty good sense there, so I am puzzled as to why he dumps all this petulant sulky kid stuff onto us here. I’ve just added a comment to his latest thread, and suggest others do the same. Let’s give him a dose of his own friendly fire!
Sorry guys, but I had difficulty in understanding this redneck language teacher ( ‘Idon’tknowfuckall’) until I had translated everything back to the original language.
This may help.
‘ah repeat: hatin’ South Car’lina has become a global spo’t, not only by “peace” types an’ lef’ wingers wo’ldwide, but anarchists an’ anti-capitalists, anti-globalisashun han’ wringers an’ fine old, hate-filled unhappy varmints who find fault in evahthin’ they git aroun’. Rather than deceive yournelves wif a sense of se’f righteous mo’al superio’ity, yo’ sh’d imagine a wo’ld wifout a nashun willin’ t’sacrifice it’s min an’ wimmen t’fight tyranny. Yo’th an’ rebellion hoof it han’ in han’. Don’t shootcherse’f in th’ foot while ackin’ out th’ no’mal course of life. An’, thar’s an airpo’t near yo’ eff’n yo’ reckon thar’s enny other place on earth thet’s better. Eff’n yo’ don’t live in South Car’lina, yo’ jest don’t git it. Ungratefulness is a seriously homely trait in a varmint. Yo”d be speakin’ Japanese o’ German eff’n it wasn’t fo’ South Car’lina. Histo’y didn’t start when yo’ were born an’ raised.’
That’s an excellent exercise in linguistics, Merkin.
I only translate when these rednecks are posting insults.
Taking GrumpyAunt’s advice I did check out the said website and found it to be full of the usual neocon anti-Muslim scaremongering, for the most part.
The rest of it appeared to be God Bless America – we will all be wearing burquas unless we are allowed to torture, rape and kill people.
Probably reaches and satisfies the target audience very well.
Sad thing is that so many of them actually believe that without them we would be speaking Japanese or German.
I love how people such as icanplainlysee(nothing) pronounce the USA as being the freest nation on the planet. The only “real” democratic nation and the only nation where a citizen can live in peace and harmony celebrating “liberty” and “freedom”. (These people really believe this shit.) Obviously, these types of Americans don’t get out of the country much and blindly follow the upper elite’s political and cultural propaganda that the good old US of A is the only shinning beacon of hope left in the world. Bullshit.
These same types of Americans have a bad habit of criticizing “foreigners” for butchering the English language while at the same time butchering it themselves. How about familiarizing yourself with the rules of contractions and apostrophes icanplainlysee? You’re making the rest of us Americans look like a bunch of idiots. And unfortunately we don’t need your help right now. I take it that most reading this blog realize that icanplainlysee speaks for a dwindling number of Americans who have recently past their “expiration date”. They will soon starve and die in the wilderness. Take pity on them.
Many of us Americans completely agree with you Jose, and were right there at the beginning saying the same thing. We just don’t get the coverage we deserve by the media moguls. And that is very unfortunate!
Merkin- well said!
icanplainlysee – you keep up with this accusation that the left winger, rebellious youth, liberal whatevers are nothing but a self-righteous arrogant group of haters. Well…. so be it. I for one am comfortable with righteousness. You’ve called yourself the “little guy” in a former comment to me. Please. You sure as shit don’t sound like the “little guy” in the comments seen on this thread. You sound like the “big-ugly, arrogant, self-righteous, stupid American”. Way to go. You must be very proud of yourself.
Peace.
If anyone can be bothered to look over on icps’s own site, someone calling herself Aphra Behn has posted a really excellent comment on his “Democratic Party plan for world peace” thread.
Thank you, 1loneranger. I know how real, decent Americans are because as I have said I’ve personally known many of you and have many friends of your nationality. And I haven’t the slightest doubt yours is really a great country.
Your post, Merkin, really made me laugh.
Following your advice, Anticant, as I usually do.I’ll look up that post by Aphra Behn.
Anti is right and ‘Aphra Behn’ has made a very brave and interesting comment. Worth looking at.
For me, with American family and ex long term quaker girlfriend, it is very sad to see the many good people getting drowned out by the collective voice of a particular group of ‘neocon patriots’ – for want of a better description.
That is why I hit these jim-jam generals where possible.
It is one way of resisting.
Hi
I don’t mind providing a target for you guys, but I would ask you to steer your comments above insult and nastiness. Forgive my responding corporately as I’m old and it’s past my nap time.
It’s ok to feel shriveled in the face of American influence and power, just don’t play like there is no correlation.
It’s ok to resent the powerful and secretly despise your own impotence, and try and enjoy stomping your feet and holding your breath the best you can.
It’s ok to imagine a world without America and work to achieve that, but acting like your only demanding whats best for this country is treachery.
It’s ok to project personal anger and bitterness onto public affairs, but you might want to seek professional help with this condition.
It’s ok to suspend reason and create your own personal reality, but understand imagining others see your phantoms is more self delusion.
In America, we tolerate the stupid, bigoted, hateful, self important, perverted and violent. To a lesser or greater degrees, but tolerate we do.
We even tolerate poor spellers and misunderstanding of grammatical correctness.
There are lots of reasons to find America disgusting, overbearing and entirely self interested. I’m certain that you could make a much longer and complete list that I.
I may be a misguided soul, clinging to imagined relic of American inate goodnes as a people, but I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure history bears out my assessment of the worlds stability because of spilled American blood.
I’m also aware the beligerrent youthful rebellion fades when painful reality seeps in. Let’s hope that happens with most of you before it’s too late.
I also glean a thread of world view that I do not share runs through your comments and undergirds your philosophy: socialism,rejection of spiritual understanding, sarcasm, cynicism, spoiled childlike demand to be heard and obeyed.
If you don’t fit completely into the profile I’ve painted, I’m betting you will to a large degree anyway.
One way to solve the worlds problems and find accomodating allies is to narrow your reading to those of your ilk: DailyKos, Huffington Post, the World Workers Party, many other virulent forms of intense America derision.
I realize I made a few harsh and flip statements and that was a mistake.
I’ve learned, and I won’t make that mistake again.
Hank
‘I may be a misguided soul,…’
Correct.
Your list of recommended reading shows your level of consideration :
‘DailyKos, Huffington Post, the World Workers Party, many other virulent forms of intense America derision.’
Should you bother to look at the list of blogs linked to (at the right hand side of the main page) you will see that none of those organs you seek to beat us with are mentioned.
‘I realize I made a few harsh and flip statements and that was a mistake.
I’ve learned, and I won’t make that mistake again.’
It is quite obvious that, despite your half faintly praised apologies, you are set in redneck concrete.
It is not too late to repent.
Hank re: “I’m also aware the beligerrent youthful rebellion fades when painful reality seeps in. Let’s hope that happens with most of you before it’s too late.”
Sadly, the “painful reality” seeped in long ago for most of us with a conscience and half a brain. It seeped in the day BushCo. took office. The seeping ooze turned to concrete the day BushCo. invaded Iraq and turned his back on civility and invited warmongering, hate and greed back to the Oval Office. We “the beligerrent youthful rebellion” aren’t going anywhere. Sorry.
We will continue to see through faded archaic attempts to promote the agenda of an insane Administration such as yours. But keep trying if you get off on it. It makes for interesting reading and banter. Though I’m beginning to think you’re just a glutton for punishment. Keep coming back for more if you must. It only makes our resolve stronger.
And regarding: “In America, we tolerate the stupid, bigoted, hateful, self important, perverted and violent. To a lesser or greater degrees, but tolerate we do.”
Um,yeah……. OK.
Guys and Gal-
Thank you for speaking the truth in fairness, skill and philosophy to ICPS. Whether or not it did anything, thank you. And thank you for putting up with this side of America. It isn’t a large part, but it is obviously there – as I’m sure it might be in other cultures as well.
Don’t give up on all of us Americans just yet. We’re trying to work it out. We are trying. I will enjoy checking out your sites.
Peace
Ranger,
Go wash the taste of european ass out of your mouth.
Stop apologizing for me. Im an adult and I don’t need your help.
I know you use drugs and sometimes type just to read your own words.
Please try and advance your argument beyong the very tired, mindless tripe that Bush has destroyed the nation.
This 1 hit wonder and your slim pickings intellectually wears thin.
Contrary to your simple minded assertion, the world is not all about Bush and oil.
Bush will be gone soon. Then who will be your target?
Have some dignity and stop treating total strangers like best buddies just because they share your sarcastic juvenile humor and they hate the American president.
Grow up.
ICPS – You’ve never tried euro-ass? Oh my, you really should some time. It’s like American ass – only spicier.
Wow, I finally hit the nerve I was looking for. It’s OK, just calm down. You really let it fly nasty style when you’re responding to people off your own site. Are you scared to let your conservative friends over there on your page see the true bigot you really are?
Lines on a map mean a lot more to you than they do me. You need to get out of your own country more and discover that there is a lot more to this planet than just the State you live in.
Sorry to insult your sensibilities.
Peace
You don’t have to be a bigot to act like a man.
And your right, today I stepped over a line I hadn’t crossed before.
Your mistaken that I attempt to moderate or manipulate comments based on where they’re made.
In general, I think you’ve found a home here with likeminded simpletons who boil down the earths problems to purposeful American evil, satisfying the need to blame somebody for a sick world condition.
The folks who comment here tend to blurt emotionally, and I fell into the trap.
Once again, I’m ending my commentary here. I differ philosophically and throwing the ball around the room with clones might appeal to some, just not me.
ICPS – you should re-read your very first comment on this post’s thread. I believe this was your first comment…
“Some are miserable toads and hate everthing..
Some are clueless, but feel better sniping at authority.
I see English isn’t your first language.
So, preaching hate and whining about America is nothing you have a stake in. And if your an American, work on your English and quit parroting rhetoric you don’t understand.
It makes you look like a stooge.”
Looks like emotional blurting to me. You’ll be back to throw the ball another day. I can just feel it.
When a person uses insults to defend him/herself, then it is clearly patent that he/she has no real arguments to discuss. That is what icanplainlysee has done on repeated occasions.
In other blogs you might have been deleted, not here. It is splendid when you can come back and see again that crap that just shows a sheer lack of dialectical skill.
You will come back because in your innermost you are half convinced the ideas you upheld so far are starting to crumble. It could not be otherwise. Why, with all those notorious neo-cons that have jumped ship when everything started to be vented of your administration’s lies and deception.
And you are quite right in just one question: it is true that people with the same convictions gather together. It happens in political parties, in religions, in sports, in everything. The human being is gregarious.
What a crotchety old runt you are, ICPS – the type of Yankee bullyboy who kicks anyone’s ass whenever they don’t kiss yours. Not a good advertisement for the American Dream, really! We Europeans are not jealous – or scared – of you. But we’re increasingly bothered by your clumsy mismanagement of your self-appointed role as world policeman and we look for wiser leadership to re-emerge in your once great country.
“I also glean a thread of world view that I do not share runs through your comments and undergirds your philosophy: socialism,rejection of spiritual understanding, sarcasm, cynicism, spoiled childlike demand to be heard and obeyed.” You’re a great one at builidng mental sand-castles, aren’t you? For your information, I’m older than most bloggers here and probably than you – I shall be 80 this year – and have a long political memory going back to the 1930s. In particular, I can remember when the USA was an ally to be proud of, with leaders of the calibre of Roosevelt, Kennedy, Eisenhower and Marshall. They didn’t just mouth democratic platitudes – they implemented them. They would not have stooped to Guantanamo Bay, “rendition”, and torture of prisoners.
“Shining City on a Hill”? Pah!
ICPS makes the same mistake as 73 million Germans did in 1933 – mistaking Nationalism for Patriotism.
Easy mistake to make, but lethal.
You’re being a little unfair, Richard – in the March 1933 elections, two months after Hitler had been appointed Chancellor, and after the engineered Reichstag fire, 17.3 million Germans voted for the Nazis, who got 44.5 per cent. of the seats, and 19.5 million voted for other parties. Interestingly, the website from which I got these figures says that much of the increase in Nazi votes came from the Catholic rural areas where people feared an atheistic Communist government. So the wheel spins…..
So the wheel spins, indeed Anticant. That’s what dictators thrive on. Nobody speaks of it because Catholic had controversial attitudes during Nazism and Fascism. On the one hand bowing to the new masters, on the other helping those suffering persecution.
What I cannot be sure at this stage is which dish of the balance bore the heavier load.
Well, Pacelli, the Papal Nucio who later became “Hitler’s Pope”, made a concordat with the Nazis whereby the German Catholic Party was dissolved in return for the Church keeping control over its schools. What actual “help” did the Church give to the persecuted? The same Pope turned a deaf ear to the deportation to concentration camps of the Roman Jews living beneath his Vatican windows. And how about the current row in Poland over Catholic collaboration with the Communist regime?
I was referring to “members” of the Catholic Church who allegedly helped Jews to flee Nazis. That was only members of the Church at the level of Monseigneur or simple priests, but that the Church attributed to itself as a whole.
Pope Pius XII has had much to be held accountable for in his relationship with the Nazis, indeed.
‘That was only members of the Church at the level of Monseigneur or simple priests…’
Much the same may be noted about the followers of Liberation Theology in South America.
It was the local priests and nuns who were invovlved and the Vatican had no problems with leaving them to the mercies of the the US led death squads.
http://flashpoints.net/ (flashpoints radio) usually has some things to ponder re SA which won’t be considered by mainstream media.
For example, this last week, :
‘Jim Carroll, physician in Cite Soleil, Haiti, confirms that the United Nations used helicopter gunships on the civilian population; we’ll speak with Kevin Pina about the ongoing UN attacks against the people of Haiti; also, more than 100,000 people protest in the Haitian streets and call for the return of President Aristide’.
If you will recall, Aristide was the democratically elected president ‘replaced’ after being kidnapped by the Yanks. The UN has supported this coup d’etat. Disgusting.
Not only did the Vatican leave them at the mercy of anybody, it did also threatened with excommunication if they persisted with the Liberation Theology. I have no more news about this latter information, if the priests have persisted or not. I must look it up.
Re Haiti, why should poor countries always bear more misfortunes by the hand of those whose duty it is to keep them free and democratic? Why should the international organisations not leave those countries to organise by themselves and not force them to toe the line?
‘Why should the international organisations not leave those countries to organise by themselves and not force them to toe the line?’
Why?. Because those same international organisations are not independent.
After WW2 control of major international organisations, such as The World Bank and the IMF, was ceded to the US.
It is no surprise that the UN headquarters is in New York. (as a child I had difficulty in differentiating between the US and the UN!!!).
However, perhaps things are changing due to the debacle in Iraq and the forthcoming attack on Iran :
‘[Putin and Bush] finalized a surprise deal Sunday that effectively ended 12 years of US objections to Russian membership in the World Trade Organization (WTO), thus removing the chief obstacle to Russia’s entrance into the group.’
The story of Liberation Theology makes for a powerful argument against the anti-religious…anticant
Please explain!
Anticant’s Arena – Force for Good – 25 January 2007
“For myself, I think that we have reached a point in world history when religious beliefs are no longer merely outmoded – they are clearly anti-social.”
The story of Liberation Theology, and those involved in the Movement, make for a powerful argument against that statement above.
Anticant’s Arena – Force for Good ? – 25 January 2007
“For myself, I think we have reached a point in world history when religious beliefs are no longer merely out-moded – they are clearly anti-social.”
The theory and practice of Liberation Theology, and those responsible for the Movement, make for a powerful argument against the above statement.
Religion is politics – Politics is religion.
When was it not? Common discussions and arguements of war always boil down to the issue of belief and non-belief. (This one might be headed in that direction?)
It would be nice if we could figure out a way to keep politicking and religious/belief justifications from influencing world issues. I’m not sure that will ever be possible however.
RICHARD: So the Liberation Theologists rejected the Pope’s lethally wicked teachings on contraception, did they?
1LONERANGER: There’s no such thing as non-political [or unpolitical] religion. It’s all about power and control.
I’ve just posted a “signing off” note on icps’s site, and reproduce it here before he wipes it off!
“This is hilarious! You really should find out more about people, Hunky Hank, before you hurl your sneers and jeers at them. I happen to know how old Jose is – none of my business to tell you, but I’ll lay evens he’s quite a bit senior to you. And a lot wiser.
I shall post no more here, as I don’t debate with intolerant characters who presume to remove my posts because they dislike my opinions. You’re welcome to your rapidly shrinking neoCon dream world. Bye.”
Good for Anti – balls you have, indeed.
And wicked too, at times.
Oh for God’s sake, Anticant, I’m not saying the Liberation Theologians were perfect…of course they weren’t (who is ?) – I was just trying to counter your apparent argument that religious beliefs, and the people who hold them, are never a “force for good”.
They can be a ‘force for good’ – not always, but sometimes.
Y’all mentioned my name?
Interesting post, interesting thread. Interesting people posting. And thank you for the compliments too, though YouCan’tPlainlySee my posts any more because they’ve been dematerialised into their component pixels.
Religion is about so many things; it is probably the slipperiest thing in the world to argue about. In the book Further Along the Road Less Travelled, Dr M Scott Peck describes four stages of spiritual growth. Professor James Fowler describes six in his book The Stages of Faith.
I can’t summarise a book in a comment, but they both compare the “born again” type Christians who are loud and noisy in their faith, evangelical (small e) coverts who tend to defer to external authority (“What Would Jesus Do?” / “The Good Book tells us…” / The Pastor says…) and contrast these with the more mystic kind of Christian who has a slower-growing, deeper-growing, more internally referenced and quieter set of beliefs, and who can accept and respect the beliefs of others.
Having known both kinds of Christian, and many others, it upsets me when people – friends of mine included – dismiss all Christians with a single sweeping statement about power or abortion or “intelligent” design.
It upsets me just as much when bigots like Mr Plainly See make the same broadsweeping statements about Muslims. I only have to look around my place of work to see the differences . One member of my team is a woman wearing very stylish western dress, and in a neighbouring cubicle is another wearing a headscarf. Two women. Two different ways of being muslim. How hard is that to deal with?
I had better stop before I rant, Muslim-loving, US-hating, Euro-assed kid that I am.
Nice to meet you guys.
Aphra.
Likewise, in an attempt to have my words appear somewhere for any length of time….. I offer my response to icanplainlysee’s mind’s eye here, in a peaceful forum.
Thanks for indulging me. I thought it only relevant here… as the trouble came to a head in this thread. I am still debating about whether or not to respond directly to Hank’s feeble attempt at an ‘understanding’. I doubt a response is worth it. I’m an optimist through and through however. And, he seems to be “allowing” my comment to remain on his pages for the moment.
For what it’s worth……….
“Blog comment censoring is a dirty and cheap trick.
I must now thank you for deleting my comments too Gramps.
Being new to blogging, this is my first experience with someone censoring my thoughts.
It would be naive of me to think this wouldn’t happen. However, after realizing that you actually did delete my tame comment, it was disconcerting.
Your manipulation and censoring of opinions expressed on your site adds strength to my notion of conservative hypocrisy. You yourself argued with me against censorship in another thread and now you extract my comments. Why have you taken on this blog project?
You frequently make mention of the futility of spending too much time interacting with the people that share your own view points. Then the waters get a bit choppy on your comments pages and you start censoring? Come on.
The irony is I paid you a compliment in my comment that you deleted. I suppose it was my attempt to appreciate your point of view that flew in the face of your contempt for my ideas that made you decide to expunge my words.
Sadly, your censorship fortifies my suspicion that conservatives manipulate information and ultimately are not worth arguing with.
After you criticised me over at https://canarislander.wordpress.com/2007/02/04/a-looming-war-against-iran/#comments
for vainly “writing just to read my own words” I said something to the effect of “you might benefit from taking the time to read your own words once in a while” in my “lost comment”.
I say again…..you might be surprised at what YOU read if you took the time to re-read your own ideas. The ideas on your blog aren’t just for us to ponder, they are for you too aren’t they? Someone who isn’t willing to question themselves and their own ideas once in a while is doomed to live a life in a box.
Censor away….it’s your blog. You can do whatever you want with it.
The others reading and visiting for the first time on your provocative and growing blog need to know however that you might just decide to extract their thoughts if they happen to reveal the unfair tenants you worship.
It is unfortunate that our discourse became unproductive. I have the feeling that it is just this thing – our inability to maintain transparency and stay with open dialogue –
that is the root of evil in our great country and is what perpetuates war.
C-ya Gramps. It was revealing throwing the ball around with you.”
I try to do good because I want to be good – not because I’ve “got religion”.
Interesting posts which I will comment later in the day.
I also sent a bye bye post to icanplainlysee but have decided to leave it as it is because he does not deserve he’s given any more importance. He’s just somebody who’s grown out of a world of intolerance for anythng or anyone he has been taught to be intolerant with.
Believe me, he deserves pity nothing else.
Be my guests.
Still the war plans go exactly according to plan.
Blame Iran for something.
Allege that Al-Sadr is now sheltered in Iran
Iranian resistance bombs in Iran now.
Support the Iranian resistance with special forces.
Hot pursuit of Al-Sadr etc
Choose your own timeline for it all.
Positively transparent.
And yet they remain in power.
Why ?
Because we are not doing enough…but there are hopeful signs :
http://historicalfootnotes.blogspot.com/2007/02/support-nationwide-student-strike-feb.html
Read it, very good.
That is going to be the way of acting in future seeing as government takes no notice of anything.
We are now seeing fingerprinting in English schools ‘to ensure the kids eat properly’. Hahaha
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6243759.stm
Soon we will only be allowed access to the net with similar fingerprint authentication.
(the ‘fingerprinting’ will be virtual http://geobay.com/ee9d2f)
We saw the moderation of the pitiable ‘IDKFA’ and I ask you to imagine him as a low level bureaucrat in the new ‘Thought Police’.
What a thought.
As a semi-frequent visitor to the ‘camps’ in Poland, when I lived there, I was always struck by the fact that it was ‘ordinary’ people carrying out the work – it is always easy to find folk willing to carry out orders.
Yes, it seems everything will go as has been planned. The points raised by Merkin are indeed a symptom that strange actions are under way. Of all times it is now that 11 Iranian guards have been killed by a bomb. Still these are provocations which I don’t think Iran will buy.
It is disgusting that school children are the first to be fingerprinted and if I were a British parent I would oppose strongly to this measure. It is not normal that my children’s lives be controlled since such an early stage in their lives. It is up to them when they are old enough to decide what to do with their existence. By all means not my decision, which is contrary.
Good signs, Richard, of a strong revulsion that apparently has moved from the internet to actual life, that is if there really is any difference.
As to Religions, as this thread is becoming too long I think that perhaps a new topic be opened, which of course may circulate around in all our blogs.
As may any other topics here.
My suggestion is that you keep ‘religion’ as part of this thread – as it is so inextricably linked to the US-led war in Iraq (and possibly Iran) :
It appears to me that we are being ‘tutored’ to hate (and kill) a new enemy : Muslims. “We” being Judaeo-Christian.
In previous times, it was the Russian Communists, Gaddafi’s Libyans, or whoever – just look at any James Bond film to see who were our ‘enemies’ of the time.
Expect more ‘atrocities’ from Iranian Muslim ‘terrorists’ in the mainsream media. The fact that the West (especially Americans) can’t tell one Muslim from another is immaterial.
We are being carefully ‘tutored’ to make the Muslim, and Islam, the ‘enemy’.
So, religion should remain part of this thread – in my opinion
I seem to recall mentioning a tasty reduction of religion being created from a nasty little thing called war, politicking and nationalism back 20 comments or so ago. So be it.
This is one kick-ass lengthy thread. And look back at who kicked it all off. Who says he doesn’t serve a purpose.
I say stay w/ religion for a while. At least till we get to 100 comments or so. 😉
How about a compromise – once we reach the ton of posts, then start a new ‘religion’ thread…unless the Bush regime attacks Iran in the meantime ?
We have certainly had plenty of different areas highlighted here that could be grist for milling in future threads. Great.
After watching Dubya on TV today trying to get the public used to the threat from The Cudds Force (even I said, what the fuck is that?) I think we are getting a lot closer to the next stage.
The credit controller was right, though – even the pitiable ‘IDKFA’ helps us fight the good fight.
Personally, I had visions of The Cudds Force being a mob of tobacco chewing varmints. Shows you how much I know.
Then, so be it, we keep this thread going, friends.
The positioning of the American Navy next door to Iran has made me think that perhaps what is being concocted is a inner rebellion in Iran. The killing of 11 Revolutionary guards might mean a timid sign of that rebellion, then the Navy would be there just to boost the rebels’ morale.
Perhaps I am being too hasty but I cannot find another explanation to how matters are being conducted.
An attack on Iran would trigger off an Islamic chain reaction, accompanied by Russia and China supporting the legal regime, which will make an Israeli/American intervention little less than impossible, but if it is a question of an inner strife then matters would be different.
The US regime is hunting for a pretext…
oh no… there it gooooeessss…..
Let the hunting begin.
I’ll catch up on this thread soon and throw some comments into the hat.
Please do, Tyger – we want to reach the ton on this thread 🙂
The killing of 11 Iranian Revolutionary Guards at the frontier with Iraq allegedly by Al Qaeda militants is a piece of news that does not match with the present position in the region. It doesn’t seem logical to anybody that Al Qaeda in a quite apparent absurd attack has joined the US strategy re Iran.
I mean I don’t think it has been Al Qaeda.
Changing the subject slightly, I reckon this site about the dangers of electronic tracking is worth a look at.
http://www.rfidkills.com/what.html
Operation Northwoods etc etc
The Poles attacking Germany etc
Gulf of Tonkin etc.
******
Really stupid from The Merkin.
I am saying that there is a chance.
Gambling on the same principle which assures that the guys from Haliburton can’t lose.
Having seen the collapse of the UK torture case for the Army, I am sure that the first touch for the ‘new war’ will come from Basra.
In that area, for certain.
Aren’t you glad you decided to blog again, Jose? Think what you would have missed! 🙂
This brings back memories that I’d sooner forget. Jose, your articles are veryinteresting. As a life-long American citizen, I am distressed that we have two parties who are now merged together into one mass of nationalistic insanity. Being patriotic has come to be defined as agreeing with whatever your particular party’s agenda is (which is very minimally different these days) and then insulting the heck out of anyone who doesn’t agree 100%.
Not for me. Like the principles of freedom of thought and speech.
And now I’m completely up to date on your blog, my friend!!! Good stuff, food for thought and all presented in a polite, scholarly, intelligent manner. Kudos!
CZE, you are really incredible. You don’t stop amazing me with your extraordinary gifts. For those who don’t know Christian Zionism Exposed is a blog included in our blogroll which is worth reading.
Merkin, yes I think we should take this tracking feature into account, as things go I wouldn’t be surprised one of these devices would be compulsory for us to wear perhaps in the not too distant future, if before we don’t make things change.
The panorama for Haliburton and Co., Boldscot, doesn’t seem to be so brilliant for those concerned. The new majority in the American Congress are bound to bow to the public pressure and perform, at least perform as if on a stage, in accordance with the opinion that brought them to their posts. As to torture and increasing problems in Basra, I should say those responsible will have their due.
I wish I could share your optimism, Jose, that the wicked will always get their due comeuppance. It must be that Canaries sunshine, which it would be nice if you could export with the bananas.
My own take on life is that “the rain falls on the just and also on the unjust fella – but mostly on the just, because the unjust pinched the just’s umbrella”.
Coming from a wholesaling background, when I left that field a few years ago, we were just getting into the RFID thing for chains like Wal-Mart. In the stuff you buy today (to track demographics, etc. ‘of course’), and of course chips to keep your dogs from being put down if they run off, and then it will be the Altzheimer folks to track them and the children (as in your fingerprinting). It’s almost bizarre to watch it move along and how the Great Marketers do things so as not to panic the herd. I was a little taken back when my partner’s husband (now with our co.) told me that our new POS system for this store will have the fingerprint system. Employees clock in and out by just putting their thumb onto the screen, apparently.
I was thinking earlier tonight about my blogging efforts to ‘expose’ how religion is merging with government on many fronts and in many places and about posting and blogging in general. It seems very futile. We are going into a one world government where we will all be tracked. There will be a ‘one world ruler’ hooked into religion (as I see it). I doubt there’s anything we can do to even slow it down. But at least we can be aware of what’s happening; maybe that’s the best we can hope for. Sometimes it feels smarter to just ‘go underground’, become as invisible to the powers that be as possible and try to live life as normally as practical considering.
My blog’s topic today ties into yours here, Jose. The closing statement (was on the Global Manifesto):
I don’t know how it will come down but something’s going on ‘under the surface’. Who will be first to institute the one world system? The Globalist Manifesto group, the Bahai, the christianZionists or will they ‘link up’? Are they linked up already in some way? The Illuminati: Fact or fiction? Begin to think about how a one world government would be administered. Think of one Internet board that doesn’t have some sort of disagreement even between people with similar mindsets and politics. Translate that out into the billions. Factor the differences in educational level, background, environment, upbringing, etc. into this mix. One world, global harmony? I think not…pipe dream but it’s coming. It’s not going to be pretty…at least not for long. But it most likely will be STRICTLY enforced. Get ready to hand over your free will and your individuality. Stepford Wives and Husbands and Children. Got RFID? The One World Government, One World Religion, New World Order wants YOU!
World Government…the Neo-Con dream…Orwell’s nightmare.
5 posts to go to the ton – where’s Tyger – he promised to post earlier ?
Tyger’s on holiday – see Tygerland.
A relevant quote from a very interesting piece by Ian R. Crane, Chair of 9/11 Truth Group UK and Ireland, on Paul’s Domain [“Loose Change – Final Cut”]:
‘Local News is a thing of the past in the USA; all local TV stations being required to broadcast the sanitized news prepared by FOX, or one of the other “approved” centralised news organisations . As a friend of mine from Texas commented recently, “Our news media treats us like mushrooms; we’re fed sh*t & kept in the dark.”‘
Nobody is “fed sh*t & kept in the dark” without their permission
(Hat-tip : Eleanor Roosevelt : “Nobody makes you feel inferior without your permission”)
Without genetic diversity bio. systems shrivel and die. The same could be said of information/media systems as well as political systems.
When will we as a species figure this one out?
Only two more post ’till we hit the one-ton challenge.
If you wish, check out David Suzuki’s one-ton challenge.
Loosely apropos to this thread in that Suzuki is an outspoken proponent of bio diversity.
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Campaigns_and_Programs/Climate_Change/News_Releases/newsclimatechange03260401.asp
ps, are we getting back to religion…….again?
Shit, you’ve already slipped in two more. Busted the ceiling! Nice.
I put up a post regarding the unending ‘yak-yak’ that is the US Congress before I got to this thread too.
Did anyone not see this indecision coming?
Come on, you guys.
You know that the Dems are just as far into the debacle as the Pubs.
When will you get a government or opposition that does the right thing?.
You have the same prob we have.
Direct, but small, action is the only way to make your opinion known.
Indeed, Boldscot, that happens in the US and it happens, too, everywhere else, Which shows hat governments are placed there and we don’t know who does the trick.
Which links it to the media commentary made by Anticant and the comment by Richard also reflects what happens in our countries. Where are we, simple mortals, in the ladder of importance? I think we are supporting that ladder.
CZE deals in her blog with this question of religions taking part in the run tp to dominance. Perhaps you’d like to visit, here
http://christianzionismexposed.blogspot.com/
And…
Phew! This is comment number 101. Congrats.
Democraps and Republicons. Those are the two nice names I use.
We are now in the ‘era of the globalists’. Those wide-eyed dreamers who, either through religion or ‘idealism’ think that we can ‘come together’ and form a blended worldwide society of people walking around with smiles on their faces, no more war, everyone somehow changed into mild-mannered, happy happy folk, just by talking them into it (and enforcing it with a one world police force and absolute supreme ruler, of course).
These global privateers appear to be ‘Amway Globalists’ – tutored in the American Way…
Having been coerced into an Amway meeting under false pretenses, Richard, I’d have to agree with you! 😉
You too ?!
They changed the name over here (for awhile anyway) because people were so turned off it was the only way they could trick people into coming. I like to go to the store and buy dish soap and toilet paper, not sit and listen to a boring get rich quick scheme just to do my dishes or…..well, never mind.
This is a true story which happened to me years ago.
I was invited to one of these ‘Amway’ events at a Gatwick hotel – I had no idea what it was about.
At the end, there was an opportunity for questions – and I asked this one in all innocence (honestly!) to the speaker : What does Amway stand for ?
The reaction from the event ‘minders’ (not the speaker himself) was a defining-moment for me – it was clear they did not want the speaker to answer the question – and he could not understand why they were preventing him from answering the question.
He did answer it – and I thanked him for answering it.
Then I told the ‘minders’ to shove it up their Amway.
My hub and I once got asked (or urged) to leave a .dot com seminar by the ‘minders’ because we were asking questions they didn’t like but that was AFTER the great lunch we had on their nickel (which is where we were talking to the other seminar attendees at our table and immediately were hovered over by the seminar ‘minders’ to whom we asked our questions, which helped pay for our wasted day.
Perhaps you’d like to read this
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/
This type of mass brainwashing is what passes for “educashun” nowadays. It started with the Scientologists and the Moonies and seems to be proliferating. There’s something called the “Alpha Course” which is extremely popular amongst would-be Born-Againers.
But IMHO Islam is the most advanced form of Clobalism – it’s built into the ideology.
Something to think about, Anticant. Religions must never be inserted in the running of a state, the more so when that state has in all certainty lots of more religions with the same rights and obligations.
That they are is doubtless a source of conflicts of all kinds.
Religion persay doesn’t ever ‘work’ because it’s run by man and man is imperfect and impossible to control except through brainwashing (as most religions do), economics or force, with economics probably the strongest for sheer survival sake. God (I believe in God), on the other hand, gives man free will, which results in the very problems the Globalists want to solve using man’s own wisdom and schemes. All such have been doomed from day one, have never worked and never will. Every religion has sects, divisions, splits, infighting….even when the core doctrines are the same.
Free will is something any sane person wouldn’t want to give up. So, when people are willing to give it up, what does it say about them?
If it wasn’t religion that caused conflicts it would be something else. Even in a controlled environment like prison, gangs form by race and subgroups from ‘colors’ (Bloods, Crips, Aryan Natoin) within various racial gangs. In society, hatred comes through differences in sexual orientation, jealousy of various origins, even something as simple as which sports teams people support.
The problem is man and these tendencies within him. We even see it on boards, as people call names and say hateful things to one another, people they don’t even know, simply because they differ philosophically.
And the Globalists plan to ‘fix’ all that? Ridiculous.
Sorry, don’t know how to remove a post. Should read “We EVEN see it on boards…” (not ‘we seven’).
CZE, I have edited your post and corrected that typo you mention in your last post.
Hope I’ve done ok.
I can edit comments if I am asked by the author, otherwise comments will be left as originally written.
Yes, CZE, the problem has always been man (not woman?) as you say. However I must say that there are good men and evil men (not women).
Why not women? Simply because men have always wanted to hold the privilege of dominance, and so goes the world! There are exceptions as happens with all rules.
I am generalising, which is never correct.
All the more reason to put a woman in charge of the ‘New World Order’.
This Princess of Tolerance will be of Agnostic Multi-Ethnic parentage. She will be an master artist, philosopher, athlete, scientist, economist, environmentalist and shrewd negotiator.
And her name will be….
This is unacceptable of course. No, not the idea of a woman running the NWO, but the idea of a one world leader.
We could start by pushing for someone like that in our home ridings though, couldn’t we?
‘And her name will be…’………………Xena Warrior Princess?. Excellento.
Count me in.
I may not be capable of joining the first team – but I can be a good squad member.
*****
Having said that, the description of this lady given by the Credit Controller is not too far off that described by Hermann Hesse – ‘Abraxas’.
Jose, in Islam religion IS the State. There is no distinction. It is pure theocracy. That is what makes it irreconcilable with Western notions of democracy. It is an illusion that there can ultimately be compromise.
ChristianZE, I agree that if religions were not the cause of conflict something else would be. But the conflicts would be easier to deal with on a human-to-human basis if the combatants did not believe that a supernatural being was directing their actions.
Belief in the supernatural is the Devil.
The bird struggles out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world. The bird flies to God. That God’s name is Abraxas.
—Hesse, Demian
Credit Controller?
Oh, I don’t know, Anticant. Easier is relative.
And why is belief in the supernatural the Devil?
Merkin,
Cut me some slack, preferably not enough to hang myself with.
I’m learning.
The irony with the West and Islam is that the only Arab country that had a real separation between religion and State – Iraq – was destroyed by the US-led invading coalition. As you know all religions coexisted in Iraq peacefully.
There also are, Anticant, other countries such as Jordan, Lybia, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, with separation State-Religion. They are also dictatorships. And I don’t know which is worse. On reflection perhaps the dictatorship is the first step towards an effective separation?.
What we must be very alert on is the actual separation between church and state in the West, the Islamic countries later or sooner also will opt for that government system. Because as you have no doubt already perceived there are too many symptoms of intrusion in some countries.
Yeah tyger’s pretty useless at the mo.
Love and Respect all.
CZE: Why? Read Sam Harris: “The End of Faith”. He puts it far better than I can.
Jose: Whether later or sooner, I fear it will be too late for us personally, and maybe for the West generally.
“Politics, not religion, is the primary cause of international conflicts”…
http://mathaba.net/rss/?x=550916
Yeah, I’d go along with that.
Anticant, I honestly don’t have the time to read it; would you just be willing to give me a short answer, since you said it as though it were fact with no explanation? Thanks.
It’s a book you should make time to read, and be able to refute, if you intend to go burbling on about “God”.
One obvious reason: when people invoke God, the Tooth Fairy, or some other imaginary entity as the justification for their behaviour, it is much harder to convince them they may be mistaken, because they “KNOW” they are right – God tells them! It is, of course, a load of boloney – but you won’t believe that, will you?
CZE: See my post ‘Force for Good?’ in anticant’s arena, and comment there if you like.
My attitude towards God-botherers is “By their fruits shall you know them”. Currently, the most abundant crop is endless war.
I’d like to add a nuance to that sentence: the primary cause of international conflicts is power, politics and religion are its servants.
Have you noticed that the most pretentious of prelates – the Roman Pontiff – styles himself “Servant of the servants of God”?
Have you noticed the dollar bill : “In God We Trust” ?
You are right, Jose – the primary cause of conflict is “POWER” (politico-religious, or whatever). Orwell, I feel sure, would totally back us up on that – a primary reason why he wrote 1984.
The problem is that ‘power’ is such a vague term – like fascism, democracy, socialism etc.
Perhaps we need a better working definition of the word, before we can make further progress…?
“When I crack the whip, you jump – or else….”
“In God We Trust” in the dollar bills is a pray by the mint employees who do not know whether the US has sufficient power to back those bills.
The Pope the servant of the servants of God? I don’t think God has any servants, perhaps that’s why.
Anticant, thanks for that but I’m limiting my blog reading for lack of time, so I’ll comment here on the general line we’re on.
Back to the ‘if there were no religion things would still be going in this direction’ sort of thinking: There are absolutely areligious groups who have global ambitions and they are no more possible or kind than religious groups’.
I don’t care if religion is involved or not. I oppose any group who wants to, as you say anticant “When I crack the whip you jump, or else” on a global level. Laws do that on every level, but it crosses the line when the concentration of wealth and power and force is in the hands of a centralized or Core Group. The technology to literally ‘rule the world’ is here now and it will be done. And the winner in who will do it has already been decided and been in place for years, waiting for technology to catch up, in my opinion.
If the person controlling my life wears a yarmulke, a cross, or simply a lapel pin, they are still going to be resisted by me.
Your refusal to take a couple of minutes to look at what I wrote and comment on it makes fruitful discussion difficult. But I guess we are at one in resisting the triumph of unreason.
Try this CZE
http://antarena.blogspot.com/2007_01_01_archive.html
Or, more accurately, this CZE :
http://antarena.blogspot.com/2007/01/force-for-good.html
Anticant, I just read it. Thanks, Richard.
Don’t disagree with what you said except that there is faith without political attachments, and that’s the faith I ascribe to, and ascribe to Jesus’ teachings and that of the rest of the New Testament authors (not trying to interpret Revelation/a vision with many symbolic meanings), which is to live a quiet life, work, love your enemies. As far as preaching the gospel, that is not beyond what atheists do of their own ‘belief system’, aka as blogging and writing and speaking and forming their own groups.
My own blog’s purpose is to show the difference and force the politicoreligious groups (and atheist groups who want to restrict my free will as well, should there be any) out in the open for debate/exposure.
CZE, what you describe as your ‘faith’ is a benign code of ethics which all good people subscribe to whether ‘believers’ or not. I wonder about loving one’s enemies, though – the best I can manage is not to hate mine. Even that’s a bit difficult, knowing that some of them would gleefully cut my throat in the name of their ‘prophet’…….
Actually, mly ‘benign code of ethics’ comes from my faith in Jesus as the son of God and how he told his followers to live. As I was explaining to the Muslim friend Jose mentioned on another board, the code of ethics works from the inside out, and most religions see it from the outside in (deeds will change the inner man or control or discipline him).
But as to atheists, China is an ‘atheistic’ nation some would say, and the lack of faith can lead to as much evil as religion. Here’s an example:
WP: China treats Internet ‘addicts’ sternly
Leaders see ‘a grave social problem’; treatment includes electric shocks
By Ariana Eunjung Cha
The Washington Post
Updated: 7:25 a.m. PT Feb 22, 2007
DAXING, China – Sun Jiting spends his days locked behind metal bars in this military-run installation, put there by his parents. The 17-year-old high school student is not allowed to communicate with friends back home, and his only companions are psychologists, nurses and other patients. Each morning at 6:30, he is jolted awake by a soldier in fatigues shouting, “This is for your own good!”
Sun’s offense: Internet addiction.
……But no country has gone quite as far as China in embracing the theory and mounting a public crusade against Internet addiction. To skeptics, the campaign dovetails a bit too nicely with China’s broader effort to control what its citizens can see on the Internet. The Communist government runs a massive program that limits Web access, censors sites and seeks to control online political dissent. Internet companies like Google have come under heavy criticism abroad for going along with China’s demands.
…..The clinic in Daxing, a suburb of Beijing, the capital, is the oldest and largest, with 60 patients on a normal day and as many as 280 during peak periods. Few of the patients, who range in age from 12 to 24, are here willingly. Most have been forced to come by their parents, who are paying upward of $1,300 a month — about 10 times the average salary in China — for the treatment.
Led by Tao Ran, a military researcher who built his career by treating heroin addicts, the clinic uses a tough-love approach that includes counseling, military discipline, drugs, hypnosis and mild electric shocks.
……‘Their souls are gone to the online world’
Tao said he believes 70 percent of the teens, after one to three months of treatment, will go home and lead normal lives, but he’s less optimistic about the third-floor patients. “Their souls are gone to the online world,” he said.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17251571/
These are cases where the kids’ lives have been completely taken over by the Web (like some adults), but if this was a religious group, some people would be much more upset than the fact that it is an atheistic government.
As to enemies and loving them, there are various forms of love. Sometimes love can involve correction, sometimes involve staying away to keep peace. To me, love is wanting the best for them, and that involves wanting them to become the kind of person who also will not hate or be an enemy.
The Chinese may or may not be atheists – I suspect there are still far more Buddhists and Confucians in China than people realise – but their government is still committed to totalitarianism. Brainwashing is carried out by ALL governments with the inclination and the power to do so – it has little, if anything, to do with atheism as opposed to religion. Another “mote and beam” fallacy, I think.
Could be.
funny adult cartoons